Author Topic: FRESH Spi'L't Milk  (Read 27700 times)

Offline jadasie

  • Activist
  • *****
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #135 on: April 20, 2018, 03:06:53 PM »
Here's another data set (Excel file), this time from the DOT, measuring neighborhood foot traffic:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/misc/nycdot-bi-annual-pedestrian-index.xls

The latest count is from May 2016, which shows that the stretch of 82nd street from 37th Ave to Roosevelt has the following single-day pedestrian counts:

Weekday (7-9am): 2868 (counted on 5/11/16)
Weekday (4-7pm): 9190 (counted on 5/11/16)
Saturday (12-2pm): 5285 (counted on 6/4/16)

In May 2007 those numbers were:

Weekday (7-9am): 1739 (5/9/07)
Weekday (4-7pm): 4753 (5/9/07)
Saturday (12-2pm): 3114 (5/12/07)

That's roughly a two-fold increase in foot traffic in less than 10 years. Is it any wonder then that commercial landlords, who are no doubt looking at these numbers, are demanding increasingly high rents from businesses? And is it any wonder then that these businesses play the numbers game and cater to the vast low-income majority rather than the high-income minority?

Here's a few other pedestrian counts taken in May 2016 from other neighborhoods:

Austin Street between 71st Ave and 70th Road
Weekday (7-9am): 871 (counted on 5/10/16)
Weekday (4-7pm): 5007 (counted on 5/10/16)
Saturday (12-2pm): 3938 (counted on 5/21/16)

Steinway Street between 31st Ave and Broadway
Weekday (7-9am): 1081 (counted on 5/11/16)
Weekday (4-7pm): 5044 (counted on 5/11/16)
Saturday (12-2pm): 3570 (counted on 6/04/16)

Bedford Avenue between North 7th and North 6th
Weekday (7-9am): 2621 (counted on 5/19/16)
Weekday (4-7pm): 6058 (counted on 5/11/16)
Saturday (12-2pm): 5038 (counted on 5/21/16)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 03:15:24 PM by jadasie »

Offline CaptainFlannel

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 1123
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #136 on: April 20, 2018, 03:14:17 PM »
Quote
And is it any wonder then that these businesses play the numbers game and cater to the vast low-income majority rather than the smaller higher-income minority?

Can you share the information that informs your claim that the vast majority of neighborhood is low-income? (A higher than average median household income suggests the opposite to me. Though I do wonder about the make up of households -- i.e. how many are seniors living on fixed incomes; how many of single income households; how many are single adults with roommates; etc.)

Offline jadasie

  • Activist
  • *****
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #137 on: April 20, 2018, 03:41:13 PM »
Maybe I should have written lower-income rather than low-income. Still, according to this median-income map (https://project.wnyc.org/median-income-nabes/), NYC had a median household income of $50,711 (according to 2010-2012 estimates). In Jackson Height/North Corona, that number was $46,119. Yes that's a large swath, and no doubt the incomes are higher than average in the Historic District. But those numbers are a small percentage of the larger area. How can it be otherwise?

Offline abcdefghijk

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 1702
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #138 on: April 20, 2018, 04:14:22 PM »
Here's another data set (Excel file), this time from the DOT, measuring neighborhood foot traffic:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/misc/nycdot-bi-annual-pedestrian-index.xls

The latest count is from May 2016, which shows that the stretch of 82nd street from 37th Ave to Roosevelt has the following single-day pedestrian counts:

Weekday (7-9am): 2868 (counted on 5/11/16)
Weekday (4-7pm): 9190 (counted on 5/11/16)
Saturday (12-2pm): 5285 (counted on 6/4/16)

In May 2007 those numbers were:

Weekday (7-9am): 1739 (5/9/07)
Weekday (4-7pm): 4753 (5/9/07)
Saturday (12-2pm): 3114 (5/12/07)

That's roughly a two-fold increase in foot traffic in less than 10 years. Is it any wonder then that commercial landlords, who are no doubt looking at these numbers, are demanding increasingly high rents from businesses? And is it any wonder then that these businesses play the numbers game and cater to the vast low-income majority rather than the high-income minority?

Here's a few other pedestrian counts taken in May 2016 from other neighborhoods:

Austin Street between 71st Ave and 70th Road
Weekday (7-9am): 871 (counted on 5/10/16)
Weekday (4-7pm): 5007 (counted on 5/10/16)
Saturday (12-2pm): 3938 (counted on 5/21/16)

Steinway Street between 31st Ave and Broadway
Weekday (7-9am): 1081 (counted on 5/11/16)
Weekday (4-7pm): 5044 (counted on 5/11/16)
Saturday (12-2pm): 3570 (counted on 6/04/16)

Bedford Avenue between North 7th and North 6th
Weekday (7-9am): 2621 (counted on 5/19/16)
Weekday (4-7pm): 6058 (counted on 5/11/16)
Saturday (12-2pm): 5038 (counted on 5/21/16)

Thanks for these figures.  They certainly correlate to what I see on the streets.

Offline ljr

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #139 on: April 20, 2018, 04:58:05 PM »
Many successful businesses cater to under served markets.

The numbers and facts tell a far different story than the biased "Jackson Heights is poor" story of some forum members. We're in New York. Yes, there are people in the community who don't have middle class incomes. Yes there are people living in overcrowded conditions. But mainly we're a middle class neighborhood.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the Queensboro. (The space is quite big though, which does give me some pause). I love getting momos, and my Peruvian fix, and all the other great food around here. But an American bistro would be a nice addition, especially since there are no other. I do hope it's good. I prefer stay in my neighborhood for a casual dinner out.



Agree with this. And there are so many variables. People talk about seniors on fixed incomes--but some that I know are actually quite well off on their fixed incomes. Those who have very nice pensions--former teachers, city workers, etc--plus social security and savings. One of my neighbors told me that retiring actually boosted her income.  She travels and eats out--yes she is a senior on a fixed income, but not poor.

Also not sure about the "it's a numbers game" claim--often offered with such smugness and certainty. I just attended a fundraising dinner that was very costly per ticket. A friend told me he had tried to persuade the organization to have a less fancy but more inclusive fundraiser: wouldn't they raise more money or at least the same amount if they had the event at a less fancy venue, and cut the ticket price so that many more people could afford to attend?

It's for a synagogue, so there are all income levels in the membership, and many members would love to contribute to a fundraiser, are very passionate about the place, but the ticket prices are beyond the reach of many--although membership dues are fairly low--which bothers a lot of us quite a bit. They do not have their own building--so the big fundraising push is to get one and stop sharing limited space with a church.

My friend said he could not persuade them to do that; evidently they raise more money with fewer attendees/higher ticket prices/more affluent people bidding higher on auction items. And for them, that's the bottom line: they need the money to get their own space.

It occurs to me that this may be analogous to the topic of having a higher-priced retail option along with many lower-priced ones, as long as there are enough people who are willing to pay and can pay the price to support the business.

I think E77 in its new, expanded form is an example of success in this regard. Business seems to be good--it's usually quite busy. Granted it is not on 37th Avenue, so the rent might be more reasonable. But if it were true that because this is such a "poor" neighborhood according to those data, a "gentrified" business like E77 cannot succeed here, then it would have closed long ago.

He seems to know what he's doing in running the place, and with all the events he hosts--music, art, readings--I think it's a real asset to the community, not just a place to get a latte and a slice of pumpkin bread. I see people of many ethnicities in there, speaking different languages. Sure, someone on a very low income would not go there for a cup of coffee--but there are plenty of people in JH who can afford and do patronize the place regularly. And plenty of lower-priced places to get coffee and food.


Offline CaptainFlannel

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 1123
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #140 on: April 20, 2018, 05:52:00 PM »
Quote
evidently they raise more money with fewer attendees/higher ticket prices/more affluent people bidding higher on auction items. And for them, that's the bottom line: they need the money to get their own space.

And can see that. And having some experience organizing events, it's probably less work for the event coordinator/organizer.

Offline CaptainFlannel

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 1123
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #141 on: April 20, 2018, 06:48:27 PM »
@jadasie it would so helpful to see the distribution curve, wouldn't it?

Ultimately, this thread was about Fresh Spilt Milk and turned in to be about other restaurants that break the mold to serve a more affluent market (i.e. the Historic District). I don't really expect folks from North Corona to come to the historic district on the regular for dinner, just like I don't hit up Sunnyside or Flushing on the regular for casual dining out. Restaurants like the upcoming Queensboro, and the already established ones like E77, Armondo's, Uncle Peter's etc. I think are looking at a smaller area for regular repeat customers, don't you?

As an aside, I'm hopeful for a casual nice restaurant that I can get lunch in that does not involve either half a chicken or a steak.

Offline hfm

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 572
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #142 on: April 21, 2018, 12:30:08 PM »
If I'm in the center of the historic district, I'm not walking much past 85 or much below 74, or much past Roos or Northern to go somewhere to eat. I'm sure restaurants know that most of their walk-in customers probably live a small number of blocks from their location. If I was going more than 10-11 blocks I could instead just hop on the subway and go to a different neighborhood and increase my choices. I'm pretty sure a restaurant on 37th where Spilt Milk was is probably a very large percentage customer base from the historic district area. I'm sure my own experience is in no way scientific though. Just a theory.

Offline jadasie

  • Activist
  • *****
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #143 on: April 23, 2018, 08:47:17 AM »
@CaptainFlannel - I'm all in favor of the Queensboro, along with any other upscale restaurants, bistos, bars, bookstores, and butchers that may wish to one day open in the neighborhood. I'm merely speculating as to why more entrepreneurs and corporate chains like Panera Bread haven't set anchor in the neighborhood (again, I'd prefer the latter kept permanently at bay).

Offline dssjh

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 5314
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #144 on: April 23, 2018, 10:33:48 AM »
wouldn't anyone opening a place here -- from the Arepa Lady to the folks behind Queensboro to, honestly, the average 99 cent store owner -- be an "entrepreneur" by definition? i think a lot of people are willing to open places here, just not necessarily the sorts of places this narrow swath of residents would most like.

Offline CaptainFlannel

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 1123
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #145 on: April 24, 2018, 08:22:07 AM »
Entrepreneur and small business owner are largely synonymous. However, within the business world, the term entrepreneur often carries more meaning: someone whose goal is continued business growth or an exit strategy for the founder through acquisition. Someone with an entrepreneurial bent is someone likely to have multiple business ventures, so they are less likely to be destroyed when things change (i.e.  3-hour photo mat, video rentals, etc.), who relies on others with expertise to run their businesses, and are pleased as punch when a bigger company wants to buy them out so they can focus on launching their next venture.

Offline jadasie

  • Activist
  • *****
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #146 on: April 24, 2018, 08:58:15 AM »
You guys are being needlessly pedantic. Sure, the CEO of Panera Bread is an entrepreneur, as is every bodega proprietor, pharmacy owner, and kid hawking candy on the subway. But I think it's pretty obvious I was referring to the owners or would-be owners of more upmarket locally-owned shops and restaurants. That's what's I keep reading is missing from the neighborhood. I'll be more careful with my words in the future.

Offline dssjh

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 5314
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #147 on: April 24, 2018, 09:34:14 AM »
i apologize if i came across as pedantic. it's just that i don't see any difference between the person who sinks his or her life into a 99 cent store and the person who sinks his or her life into an upmarket candle or skin care shop. same thing, different product.  certainly didn't intend to make it seem like a personal assault.

Offline CaptainFlannel

  • Mayor
  • *******
  • Posts: 1123
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #148 on: April 24, 2018, 11:24:42 AM »
I object to being called pedantic -- and needlessly pedantic -- when we're having a discussion about entrepreneurship and being a small business owner. That's being needlessly rude.

Additionally, the CEO of Panera Bread is not an entrepreneur. Or rather, his role at Panera Bread is not as an entrepreneur, having joined the company in 2010 (Panera Bread goes back to the 1980s at least).
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 11:31:54 AM by CaptainFlannel »

Offline N00b

  • Activist
  • *****
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: FRESH Spi'L't Milk
« Reply #149 on: April 24, 2018, 12:03:26 PM »
Small business owners are a subset of entrepreneurs.