Author Topic: Gentrification thread (Read 3335 times)

dssjh · « **on:** November 09, 2009, 09:00:51 PM »

stevengray:

i totally respect your statements.

you raise an interesting point regarding the current status of jackson heights. and as someone who has lived in nyc for just about my entire life, and in many many neighborhoods -- some of which i was forced out of by gentrification -- i find it better to raise questions about gentrification and wholesale changes BEFORE they happen than in rueful regret after the fact.

i remember a new york where neighborhoods had character. where the east 80s were discernibly different than the west 40s. where astoria was different than carroll gardens. where upper flatbush-- where i lived in the '86-'87 -- wasn't just park slope redux. that's the new york i have loved since my childhood. granted, some people want a neighborhood that's exactly the same as every other area in the city -- oh sure, pretending that keeping indian grocers and carryouts, but secretly hoping each and every one of them is replaced by a trader joe's, a brooklyn bagel, a bliss spa, any number of things that will drive out the riff raff. i'm not one of them.

we can't have it both ways. we can't have raja foods AND 25 dollar entree french joints. we can't have both inexpensive groceries AND whole foods. i know which i prefer. i know which i moved to jackson heights to be around. and, fortunately, i don't get the sense that my entrenched neighbors are going to be driven away the way people were in many of my other neighborhoods.

Shelby2 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 09, 2009, 09:39:16 PM »

Moderator note: this post was split off from the Airplane Noise thread and now forms a new topic. The post above was in response to this one:

Quote from: StevenGrey on November 09, 2009, 05:00:18 PM

Now to get serious for a moment... there's nothing I can do about how you feel regarding the "entitled" newcomers to Jackson Heights, but trust me, as someone who has lived in other parts of this city, JH has one heckuva LONG way to go before it becomes "gentrified." We'd all be well advised to be a little more respectful to one another and not start accusing people of being elitists or racists because they express a certain opinion about street vendors or trash collection, the local homeless, or even about the types of business establishments they currently patronize or would like to see in the future. Given the current economic outlook for our city and state, we'd all be better off working with each other than at cross purposes. End of sermon. :angel:

which was in response to this:

Quote from: v70cat on November 09, 2009, 03:11:16 PM

I find this site and others related to JH are littered by entitled people that recently moved here and since they are here, they want to things to change! Now some change is good and the community can benefit from the help of its new members however I find that it is very easy for people to complain and be entitled and do nothing in the end. The Airport is vital to the City and for or for bad it happens to be in our back yard.

I don't like the early Sunday morning airplane noise and was suggesting that might be a reasonable/constructive compromise for all.

dssjh · « **Reply #2 on:** November 09, 2009, 11:05:38 PM »

thanks shelby...i didn't mean to go too far off topic, sorry! :embarassed:

p.s. apologies to steven for misspelling his last name!

Shelby2 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:07:16 AM »

Quote from: dssjh on November 09, 2009, 11:05:38 PM

thanks shelby...i didn't mean to go too far off topic, sorry! :embarassed:

p.s. apologies to steven for misspelling his last name!

No problem - this seems to be a topic people like to discuss (in general, in NYC) so I thought it deserved its own thread. There is an old thread with the same subject, but I thought it was time to have a new one!

NYC Peromyscus · « **Reply #4 on:** November 10, 2009, 09:28:52 AM »

Quote from: dssjh on November 09, 2009, 09:00:51 PM

stevengray:

we can't have it both ways. we can't have raja foods AND 25 dollar entree french joints. we can't have both inexpensive groceries AND whole foods. i know which i prefer.

Well, somehow the Starbucks, fancy French bakery, and $35 entrees at La Portena, all operating in Jackson Heights for a few to many years, did not cause many lower-cost businesses to close! If anything, there has been a proliferation of lower-cost Bangladeshi grocers and butchers as the neighborhood is supposedly gentrifying! And the dollar stores are still going strong...your economic theory of gentrification needs some work

madalyn · « **Reply #5 on:** November 10, 2009, 09:50:21 AM »

Quote from: dssjh on November 09, 2009, 09:00:51 PM

stevengray:

we can't have it both ways. we can't have raja foods AND 25 dollar entree french joints. we can't have both inexpensive groceries AND whole foods. i know which i prefer. i know which i moved to jackson heights to be around. and, fortunately, i don't get the sense that my entrenched neighbors are going to be driven away the way people were in many of my other neighborhoods.

I would just like to question the assumption that we can't have both raja foods and french joints. I am not a newcomer to the neighborhood and I am also not particularly in favor of the influx of national chains such as Starbucks or Trader Joe's.

Just over the bridge you can find any variety of eateries - from Michelin 4-star restaurants to Gray's Papaya and they are all able to thrive. I'm sure Jackson Heights has room for much more variety than we now have. "Mom & Pop" places are not, by definition, mediocre and cheap.

dssjh · « **Reply #6 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:01:42 AM »

well, the only time i've ever set foot in a starbucks was at a jersey turnpike exit, so i wouldn't necessarily call that a harbinger of gentrifcation, just a purveyor of substandard fast food.

as far as la portena -- and la fusta and a couple of the places along northern -- i see 'homegrown' upscale places as a little different. i might be way way off base on that. but in general, i am drawing from my experience living in places like carroll gardens (when smith street looked a lot like roosevelt avenue does now, but DID have a few upscale red sauce joints) and the lower east side (circa 1983). the floodgates opened there, commercial rents skyrocketed and generation-old mainstays got replaced by schmancy newcomers who went belly up in months, leaving rows of vacant storefronts. those weren't isolated incidents....they were the rule. and often still are.

i think that sometimes -- not always -- relative newcomers to a neighborhood (and after 15 years, i am still on the fringe of that status) tend to gravitate towards each other and not befriend old timers. and that people from different economic/social groups do the same. as such, there's an assumption that people all want the same thing. the fabric stores and by-the-gram jewelry places stay in business because there are a whole lot of people who want/need what they're selling. would a JH version of murray's cheese do the same? i don't know. i honestly doubt it, because that sort of shopper -- while present -- is a small part of this neighborhood. if someone wants to try it, bless 'em and i might even give a shot (although i doubt they'd be as good overall as d'espana has been for ages).

Queenskid · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:30:44 AM »

This is a touchy subject for me. I was born and raised here. My parents still live here. I stayed when all my childhood friends left. I've lived through the good and the not so good times. I don't want to see the place gentrified a la Park Slope. But I also don't have this romanticized view of a Jackson Heights that's "cool" because it has graffiti. And I cannot stand the people who approach this place like its an episode of National Geographic.

When I was young we had a ton of Irish bars that had character and characters. They are all gone. We had Jewish delis and butchers where the guys behind the counter knew your name. We had a lot of things that were pushed out by the economic gentrification that raised rents on businesses that had been a part of this neighborhood for years. For some, diversity meant losing your lease.

No, I'm not longing for the "good old days" when most of the neighborhood was White. I love diversity, that's why I stayed when everyone I knew left. But diversity doesn't mean that there is no place in the community for the places that serve some of my needs. I shouldn't have to leave Jackson Heights in order to buy a book, a burger or a cocktail. I prefer Thai and Indian food to French cuisine, but sometimes I want to have a bistro experience. I LIKE Trader Joe's. I wish there was one in the neighborhood and I'm not going to apologize for that.

dssjh · « **Reply #8 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:04:01 PM »

i agree with a lot of what you're saying, queenskid:

i lived on the lower east side from the age of 17 to about 22. i thought it was romantic and cool to have heroin dealt from my stoop (because the dealers protected us in return for letting them use it). that's ridiculous to the adult version of me. i do miss the other aspects of that community, but that's another matter.

no, i don't long for graffiti or the prostitition and open drug dealing that was part and parcel of roosevelt avenue 15 years ago. i do have some common sense.

and, of course, it'd be nice to have a bookstore. but in terms of character, don't you have a certain fondness for the new york that did have some differentation from neighborhood to neighborhood, where every single ten block area didn't have the exact same elements -- a fusion asian place, a 'new american' bistro, 36 banks and no hardware stores, delis, real bakeries, etc.? that's all i am saying. i am willing to make a trek to bensonhurst and dyker heights for genuine old school italian (not a newbie's interpretation of same). i love going to flatbush to eat really great vegetarian caribbean food and so on. i don't think all of those things need to be right on 37th avenue. after all, most people have to leave their neighborhood for some things they desire -- which explains five boroughs (and beyond) worth of folks converging on sripraphai weekly.

i hope this wasn't too rambling!

p.s. the best burger in the city is ten minutes away at donovan's. :rockon:

Queenskid · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:19:42 PM »

There is some middle ground between a community covered in Asian Fusion restaurants and what we have now. Diversity should be diverse.

And I want a burger place that's right down the block, not one neighborhood over. Hamburger Express, where have you gone! By the way, I still get my genuine "old school" Northern Italian from Trieste. No need to leave the neighborhood for that.

StevenGrey · « **Reply #10 on:** November 10, 2009, 01:05:18 PM »

It was really NOT my intention to start a new thread on the dreaded G-word. The subject is far too complex to truly discuss in a limited forum such as this, and when matters of race, ethnicity, language, income and social class are brought into play, it can be like navigating through a minefield. However, I will say that New York City has always been in a constant state of flux, with new groups of immigrants filling the voids left when the previous generation had moved on. Our neighborhoods are constantly changing and evolving along with the times in which we live, the city's demographics, and economic conditions. We are blessed to live in a city where one can simply hop on the subway and be transported in minutes to a neighborhood with its own special character, cuisine, and culture, and I am hopeful that will not change even after another four years of Mayor Bloomberg. We are fortunate in that Jackson Heights itself has so many to sample from.

dssjh · « **Reply #11 on:** November 10, 2009, 01:17:36 PM »

finally something we can agree 100 percent on....

trieste! :smitten:

but i miss the pasta w grappa from their old menu from before they renovated.

still....so so happy they are here!

Quote from: Queenskid on November 10, 2009, 12:19:42 PM

There is some middle ground between a community covered in Asian Fusion restaurants and what we have now. Diversity should be diverse.

And I want a burger place that's right down the block, not one neighborhood over. Hamburger Express, where have you gone! By the way, I still get my genuine "old school" Northern Italian from Trieste. No need to leave the neighborhood for that.

JHICON · « **Reply #12 on:** November 11, 2009, 01:18:38 PM »

Personally I just think Jackson Heights Residents are spoiled me being one. Our neighborhood is so alive literally at all times during the day and night. It can be 3AM and I know I can go buy food at a restaurant or cart(Pollos Marios, Tacos, Sammys, Kebab King, perrada de chalo, Dunkin Doughnuts, Ihop)... Ran out of milk?! don't worry you have trade fair, Walgreen's, 711, Duane Reade, rite aid all open 24/7, Head hurts well you already know most of pharmacies are 24/7... Making a gourmet Asian meal? Why go to whole foods to buy Asian ingredients when you can shop at our local Asian markets and purchase them at a much more reasonable price (Korean, Chinese, Indian, Japanese) Don't like starbucks and rather enjoy really coffee by baristas rather than a some lady pressing buttons go to E77, I really don't know why we complain, in the end i just think were a bunch of spoiled brats asking for more!

Those are my two cents. Take the subway or drive to trader Joe's, whole foods, etc... and stop being lazy.

ShinjukuBaby · « **Reply #13 on:** November 11, 2009, 09:12:36 PM »

Quote

There is some middle ground between a community covered in Asian Fusion restaurants and what we have now. Diversity should be diverse.

I couldn't agree more.

I think in some ways Jackson Heights suffers because its retail has so little diversity. Every block seems to have three check-cashing / money-wire places, a pharmacy and two luggage stores.

For example, I think lots of the "old-timers", as well as people from a variety of ethnic and economic groups, might appreciate a nice neighborhood wine bar (even if we had lose one of the four beauty parlors on some block to find a place for it.)

Shelby2 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 11, 2009, 09:35:39 PM »

Quote from: ShinjukuBaby on November 11, 2009, 09:12:36 PM

For example, I think lots of the "old-timers", as well as people from a variety of ethnic and economic groups, might appreciate a nice neighborhood wine bar (even if we had lose one of the four beauty parlors on some block to find a place for it.)

Maybe we could have a fusion salon/bar that would look kind of like Beauty Bar on E 14th Street. Call it Saloon.

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Author Topic: Gentrification thread (Read 3335 times)

dssjh

Gentrification thread

Shelby2

Re: Gentrification thread

dssjh

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Shelby2

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NYC Peromyscus

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madalyn

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dssjh

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Queenskid

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dssjh

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Queenskid

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StevenGrey

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dssjh

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JHICON

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ShinjukuBaby

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Shelby2

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